The Best SEO Podcast: Unlocking the Unknown Secrets of AI, Search Rankings & Digital Marketing

The Father of SEO Bruce Clay Reveals How to Thrive in Today's Digital World

• bestseopodcast.com • Episode 636

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Bruce Clay, the father of SEO, discusses how AI is reshaping digital marketing while SEO remains foundational.

  • SEO has evolved from simple keywords to expertise, experience, authoritativeness, and trustworthiness (E-E-A-T).
  • Bruce's "siloing" method organizes content by topic to showcase subject expertise.
  • Proper "link equity" distribution is crucial but often misunderstood.
  • Google’s AI Overview has cut top organic click-through rates by up to 70%.
  • Content that thoroughly answers questions performs best in search and AI results.
  • Small businesses can compete using Google Business Profiles and local reviews while phasing in SEO.
  • Bruce suggests four-week sprint planning for SEO due to constant algorithm shifts.
  • Question-based searches have grown from 4% to 16% of all queries.
  • Websites need technical excellence just to qualify for rankings.

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Guest Contact Information: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-clay/

https://www.bruceclay.com/

https://www.seotools.com/

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The Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing podcast is a podcast hosted by Internet marketing expert Matthew Bertram. The show provides insights and advice on digital marketing, SEO, and online business. 

Topics covered include keyword research, content optimization, link building, local SEO, and more. The show also features interviews with industry leaders and experts who share their experiences and tips. 

Additionally, Matt shares his own experiences and strategies, as well as his own successes and failures, to help listeners learn from his experiences and apply the same principles to their businesses. The show is designed to help entrepreneurs and business owners become successful online and get the most out of their digital marketing efforts.

Find more great episodes here: https://www.internetmarketingsecretspodcast.com/  

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Speaker 1:

This is the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing, your insider guide to the strategies top marketers use to crush the competition. Ready to unlock your business full potential, let's get started, howdy. Welcome back to another fun-filled episode of the Unknown Secrets of Internet Marketing. My name is Matt Bertram. I am very excited about my next guest. For those of you watching, you know who it is. For those of you listening, it is none other than the father of SEO, bruce Clay. Bruce, great to have you.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much. Glad to be here.

Speaker 1:

Well, you know, we've been having a lot of discussions about the direction of SEO and what's going on with AI and the future and, as SEO, that title has expanded quite a bit, like everybody's SEO for LinkedIn, seo for algorithms I think it's what a lot of people are talking about algorithms right, I think it's what a lot of people are talking about. But I would love to just and I think a lot of people would to get your opinions on. I mean, in the last 36 months or roughly, has been more changes in the last 15 years in SEO, and so I started getting involved in mastermind groups and going to conferences and had to get re-synced with, uh, all all the different changes and, um, you know, I think there's a lot of seos out there that are uh still uh kind of in the mix trying to figure it all out. So I would love to just kind of get your perspective on the industry to get started okay, um, that's a a pretty open question.

Speaker 2:

I I'd like to start by just saying when I started this was 29 years ago SEO was a keyword.

Speaker 2:

And all you had to do is put the keywords in the right spot and you would rank, and then it became things and you had to have associated words and proximity and a lot of stuff became more I'm writing about a topic than one word, yeah, and some of the stuff in the one word area became spam when you started writing about topics. And then you started with this usability and EAT, and so you're right, it has evolved and it got to the point where, no matter what you did at a technical level, it qualified you for usability, right. One of the tips I typically give is, if you have a page and it has multiple sections and you don't have jump links at the top of the page, you're not being usable, right.

Speaker 1:

It's like table stakes right. It's like table stakes, Like to get in the game. You have to have a fast loading site that's usable, especially on mobile right. Mobile first, and that's the starting point. You have to get over that threshold and it's typically pass or fail, right, or it is pass or fail, so either you're there or you're not. To get in the game right.

Speaker 2:

Right, and that, by the way, has continued. Or you're not to get in the game, right, right, and that, by the way, has continued. The concept of SEO is free is SEO is not free. You have to pay the dues for your free SEO right, and it has evolved to that point. And I was very excited about SEO. It was fun. I mean, I was solving Rubik's cubes while I juggled them. I mean, that was SEO. Every Monday, it was a new industry. Google made changes. There was the Google dance. That stopped, but they're still doing it just 3,000 times a year, times a year. Here's the problem that we ran into is COVID. Covid disconnected the educators from the students by eliminating conferences. It eliminated training classes. It eliminated a lot of things. I mean, I tried to adapt with SEO training dot com, which is my online training curriculum, and I've just restarted classroom. But when you look at the whole thing, conferences are thousands of people at a time hearing what they need to hear to get it get ahead.

Speaker 1:

And the big problem by the way, everybody that's listening. I have gone through bruce clay's training uh online and it's phenomenal, so I definitely encourage you to go check it out.

Speaker 2:

So uh, and I'll even tell you I put up a new version this. Actually it was yesterday afternoon Brand new version. So you have to keep current. It's an expensive proposition, you do.

Speaker 1:

That's why I was at Brighton, because I was like what's going on across the pond, like what are people doing? What are people talking about? I mean into TSEO, which maybe we can get into a little bit later. I mean ranking in the search or the large language models is what everybody's focused on now.

Speaker 2:

But you see, that is exactly the evolution. So everybody's talking about usability and EAT and the fact that just because you did the keywords doesn't mean you're usable. Right, there's, there's multiple entry points and with AI, this is where we're seeing the current change. With AI, it is well. What people don't recognize is SEO is still absolutely the table stakes. To just get in the game.

Speaker 2:

It turns out that with Google, if you aren't in the top two pages say you don't show up in AI. Two pages say you don't show up in AI. Well, with chat search, right, if you're not ranked in Bing, you don't show up in their AI. So obviously there's requirements that you have to be accepted by the search engine in order to show up in the AI results. And the big thing there Go ahead, Go ahead. What were you going to say?

Speaker 2:

The big thing there is that you have to recognize that the LLM in the AI module. It doesn't want to have to go spider the web, it doesn't want to have to worry about canonicals and redirects and server speed because it's it's taking multiple data points and providing an answer from those. So it's no longer really caring about what's the speed of site one when I'm actually merging the content from 10 sites at a time, right, and all it really cares about is are you trusted, Are you having an authoritative expert type answer as recognized by all the search experts, the search engines? And if you are, then you qualify to be in an AI result and so when you're looking at is AI important.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1:

No, no. So I want to bring everybody up to speed. We kind of breeze through eat, which which you know, I know we've talked about, but I you know how, how the webpages want it these days is you got to answer whoever answers the question the most fully, right? So I want to make sure that this podcast for people listening, that we cover it.

Speaker 1:

One is I think Google kind of waved the white flag on no AI content and just said we give up, right, because I mean, there was already a lot of content that was AI and they kind of were unsure about it. But they said, hey, if it's useful content, you're allowed to do it. And then with E, I believe that's probably why they added the additional E for the experience, right, to kind of say, okay, you're all experts now, right, with the AI, but prove it like, prove it, show me the product, show me, you know, if you're talking about phishing, you know you with the phishing poll on, you know. So they said show the experience component of it. And I think that that was their first attempt to combat the entourage of just junk content, because AI, without really training the AI, it's just generalized content and it starts to become very homogenized and it's what other people are doing. It's the same kind of like sales, salesy, kind of like data set. That's training. So you gotta, you gotta, you gotta customize it, you gotta have an operator to to really take it to the next level and feed it content to train it to talk like you want it to talk.

Speaker 1:

But, going back to what you were saying, okay, that's what people want, even though I've heard different numbers. I was on a podcast previously and I heard the number was a lot higher. But that's when I think Google has sounded the alarm bells right. When chat GBT, the amount of searches started to really pick up and they were looking at the trajectory and most of their business is made through AdWords.

Speaker 1:

So they need people on the search engines and then they're I think, from what I've read, they're losing money with the AI overviews to create that high quality search or they're using data or processing power to create that. So I mean the game has dramatically changed. And then they got, you know, the zero search and so OK, so I just kind of wanted to bring everybody up to kind of where we're at right now, and it's a little bit of a zoo, right, it's a little bit of a zoo of what's going on, and even the Google dance, and maybe you can speak to this. This is just a personal question I have, like certainly I use rank math a lot on the backend and you know it ties into analytics and I'm seeing that Google dance every day. No-transcript. Jump back into where we were with AI.

Speaker 2:

Sure, what was? The Google dance was actually a party that Google had at, you know, their headquarters during SMX. It used to be SES. During SMX, it used to be SES SMX, and it'd be actually an on-campus party, food drink. I mean, it was an actual with music. It was a dance, but it was referred to as sort of like the hokey pokey, you know, on Monday. Monday you put your left foot in and then all of a sudden, you got to take your left foot out and put your right foot in and and Google was trying their algorithm changes in the live algorithm.

Speaker 2:

So every time they were trying something they'd put it in and then it would be ugly and then they take it out and tweak it and put it in again and you know the hokey pokey. And that was referred to by the community as the Google dance. Now Google has a lot more dances going on at a time. They have over 100 development teams that are trying to improve overall the search results. So, according to Google, they do 5,000 updates a year. I kind of think of it as 2,000 of them are fixing what they broke yesterday.

Speaker 2:

So 3,000 in 300 days in a year and you know, do the math, that's a whole bunch of day, and so we're seeing a live index that's highly volatile. So if you go in, as you pointed out, if you go in on Monday and look at your traffic, and then you go in on Tuesday, you may see entirely different traffic. And Wednesday entirely different traffic again, because they're doing 10, 20, 100 changes on various days of the week. And that doesn't even count the fact that you have competitors that are trying to counter those changes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

It's a zero-sum game.

Speaker 2:

And, yeah, somebody's going to get it. You know, if Forbes loses the traffic, it went somewhere, unless people just stop searching for the keywords. So that is how the dance has evolved over the years. Yeah, you're going to see volatility. One of the things that I've been doing as part of our AI tool we have something called pre-writerai and it's a whole collection of tools, and one of the things that I've been doing the research on is I analyze a website and I use AI to do the analysis and say a website, and I use AI to do the analysis and say okay, what is the intent of the website, right? Is it transactional, navigational, informational? And then even on informational, you get there's 12 categories. Most people don't care, but education is one of them, and et cetera.

Speaker 2:

So you go through and you say, okay for this site, what is its intent? Yeah, Then you take what are your top keywords and you do queries on that and when you analyze the top sites for those queries, they all have the same intent, not necessarily yours.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So I have a question about that. So you know, some of the different tools out there will break it apart in the informational, commercial, navigational, transactional. A lot of times when we create informational content it's showing up as commercial content. And you know, I'm just curious, like when you're, when you're looking at content, what are the qualifications for each bucket to to meet that requirement, to qualify for that? And sometimes they qualify for multiple ones, right? But I'm looking at a ratio for for certain sites and I want to make sure that the informational content is the highest percentage and and sometimes the commercial section is is the highest content. So it's not transactional, you know, but there there's some kind of blend here and I'm just curious if you could break it down on how you see it yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, we're finding very few are actually blended.

Speaker 2:

Google seems to believe and this is my analysis and it's ongoing that when I identify the top five sites for a particular keyword, they are true blue blood, informational, hardly any transactional anywhere on the page, because it will identify percentages Right and in my tool and so I can tell you that you know that keyword is considered informational and yours is a hybrid with transactional and maybe you need to do this and I actually tell you what it is to move more towards the informational and be less transactional and operationally. That's going to be an important thing. You have to be able to understand that Google is sort of blue blooding this stuff. They're saying I want an expert and I want the expert to be exactly about this and I don't want you to stray, and I'm finding, as I do more analysis on more words, that the straying, while it might be good for your business, isn't necessarily good for the Google search results. They don't care about your business. So if I wanted to educate but sell a course, if I try to do both of those.

Speaker 2:

it's going to be hard to compete against people who are true blue blood education only because they're more expert on exactly what Google thinks the query should be. And while for our websites it may make total sense to blend them, sometimes blending them could be counterproductive, and that's opening up a whole new area of research for us. But we have figured out how to get into a number of things. Let me give you a secret. All right, one of the secrets.

Speaker 2:

Most people, when they use AI, they go up, they put in a keyword and say generate a page that talks about this keyword, and you get a page, and in our tools what we do is we say here is a keyword, and then we say and who would put in that keyword? What is that persona, what are their pain points and therefore, what are the other keywords we need to put in the article? And so we write articles that solve pains, not just articles that define keywords. It's an entirely different approach to article drafting, and so nobody's doing that. I mean you should do that, I mean if you're going to type it in.

Speaker 2:

You should do that.

Speaker 1:

So I have a about that as, as it kind of relates to uh, maybe like link, equity, flow and internal linking, right, so, um, building out uh associations or semantically, or you know uh, how this word uh spatially uh interacts with, with what you're talking about as an entity. Let's say, if you're talking about, for example and I've heard you say this a number of times you said, well, and it may be different today, right, but this was something that you said a long time ago, so I'll preface that but you said you will rank for seo if you do not rank for sem. Right, sem was the, the broader category, the search engine marketing, which is broken down into the ppc and the seo, right, and and when I, when I had heard that, when we were ranking um, our own site, um, like that was kind of a uh, a guiding uh light as far as, like, we weren't, we weren't focused on that, but we do do PPC and we do do SEO. So if you talk about content that you're creating, say you're talking about, let's just talk about SEO, because we're talking about SEO, you're writing an informational piece. You don't have a call to action at the end. I'm curious about a call to action of like, because if you're're building pages that are, specifically, you should have some kind of lead capture, right, or maybe it's like you're embedding maybe a calendar link or something like that. Is Google looking at that as commercializing it when they're looking at the whole page, or are they just looking at the content? That was like kind of my first question.

Speaker 1:

If there a call to action outside the, the body of the information, but then when you have written that content and say that that topic is broadened because you're an expert and you're going into some subtopical authorities for whatever you're talking about, when is it a good idea, right? So, like, like. Is it good to link out to the p? Like? Is it good to link out to the PPC? Is it good to link out to digital marketing? Is it good to link out to web design? Or is it better to link to other things that are associated inside the vertical of SEO, like local, technical, like. How do you view the world? I know it's a little bit of a nuanced art, but I'm just curious, from a link equity flow standpoint, when you're approaching that, whether it be anything, how do you, how do you um decide?

Speaker 2:

well, we absolutely follow siloing, which we invented in 2002, which is align your content by how people search and concentrate your content by topic.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. And you do that in your training too. You talk about that a lot in your training. The silo Right.

Speaker 2:

And even our online. We have a separate online course for it. It turns out that what you want to do is if you want to rank for SEO, you have to have a concentration of SEO information that interconnects about SEO. That way, you can be an expert. But if you want to rank for digital marketing, as you pointed out, you need to have pay-per-click.

Speaker 1:

You need to have all these things in the parent.

Speaker 2:

Right.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, the story I typically use is shoes, right, if I had a store and it had every kind of shoe in the world, I should be able to rank for footwear.

Speaker 2:

But if I am only about boots, even though boots are a form of footwear, I shouldn't rank for footwear because I'm only about boots. Right, and I think Google is, as I said, it's looking for blue blood specialties. It's looking at that level. So you have, on the one hand, I want to rank for this term, I have to qualify and I pay my dues in each kind of shoe, or I only want to rank for boots and I'm a boot site. So, yes, you have sub silos, a lot of people call them clusters, but it is a sub silo and it is a section of a website that is just about this topic, interconnected. Absolutely, you have to be able to do that, or you're not a subject matter expert on that term, but there's a lot of terms that a normal website wants to rank for well, if you're flow, if you're flowing link equity or like across the page and and if you do, or across pages and breadcrumbs and all that.

Speaker 1:

But you're you're trying to build a subspecialty. Let's just continue along the lines of like, ok, seo. And then you got digital marketing, which you know, and then even web design, I think from how Google wants to see it is like completely separate, unfortunately. So those, those are, those are separate and you're siloing the pages in that way. What I've seen with like outbound linking and inbound linking, the link equity, is interesting. So if this page is is pushing to this page, or this page is pushing to this page, the, the page that the link equity is pushing from that other page or the page that's pushing the link equity to it starts to rank for stuff that the page it's linking to has Like. Have you seen that Like? So like is, let's say, about SEO and it's linking to PPC, and you're pushing that link equity that way, site A, that's about SEO, will actually start to rank for PPC because it's linking to site B.

Speaker 1:

And so I'm trying to understand when the link equity flows, like if you're not keeping everything in that silo and you're maybe saying, ok, well, I'm going to link this page that has a lot of link equity. I'm going to flow it from PPC to SEO. What happens is they kind of like trade link equity or something like that. I feel like there's like some kind of swap because the PPC page will actually start to rank for some SEO terms if it links to this page Like I've.

Speaker 1:

It's really I've seen it a few times and I and maybe if you could just describe your understanding and I know you've read all the patents about like link equity distribution because I think a lot of people that I talk to in SEO and when we go deep, they understand the technical fixes right, they understand how to approve it, they understand the meta descriptions, but when we start to get into link equity distribution, like whoa, like that, they're just trying to fix the technicals of the site.

Speaker 1:

They're not trying to move uh, the, the, the power of the site around and and they build these crazy like um menu structures that everything's linking everything, and I was like you've got to narrow the focus to drive, to drive what you're trying to rank for, because everything's equal, and then you you break it off of the menu and then it kind of releases it Like you don't want to be in the footer and like at all, like if you can help it, and then even if you release it from the menu structure, many times it'll shoot up, you know, for a temporary period of time. So I think link equity distribution is something that is not talked about enough, or at least I've had a lot of questions about it from personal experience and then I read a lot about it and I would love to get your kind of take on that.

Speaker 2:

OK, so obviously we've done hundreds of siloing projects, restructured websites, and worried about moving structured websites and worried about moving what we refer to as logically moving page rank around and building a silo structure. In the sub silos we have this thing which I refer to as page rank laundering, right? So the scenario there is I have all these links to my homepage and it's they linked to me with Bruce Clay, so I have all these points about Bruce Clay. Then on that page I linked SEO and the laundering happens, where I take my points for Bruce Clay and I redistribute them as SEO and I redistribute them as SEO. Well then that page I went to has a breadcrumb and it links back and I can actually change the points on my homepage through that kind of an internal link structure. So I think what you're seeing is somebody comes in, they move it over from the SEO page to the pay-per-click, but the pay-per-click links back and that resets some of what the SEO page might rank for in that laundering approach.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, you're trying to the surfer, you're trying to kind of get back and I do that If I don't know where else I want to link to yet on the page, I'll actually redistribute it back to the home page and then let it.

Speaker 2:

Let it, let it push back right and many times you're resetting the page rank usage because you're now forming the full circle. Um, I actually have slides on that in the training and it is a useful thing. I ran a test where obviously a lot of my homepage is Bruce Clay, and then I go to the SEO page and then I made up a breadcrumb, which was a different word, where, instead of home which, by the way, you should never use- yeah, you should never do that.

Speaker 1:

That's like the number one thing I see every time I get a sign of like come on, people, like we're not trying to write for home.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you're not real estate, so I use a keyword instead that didn't exist, right, and then within a week my homepage ranked for that keyword. So what you're actually talking about is internal link structures, especially breadcrumbs. But internal link structures can, when you fold back onto the original source, you can change some of the intent of that page through that link.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's use that example really quick and just go a little bit deeper. And then I want to get back to AI. Okay, so let's forget that Bruce Clay is an entity of the father of SEO and Google does know that. Okay, let's say that association's not there, but you have a strong ranking for your name or somebody else. Let's just use somebody else is ranked for their name, right, and they got a bunch of links to their homepage and their homepage is about them as a consultant or whatever it may be. Say they're a consultant, like whatever, like some kind of other consultant, but they have a bunch of links for their name, so they have a bunch of link equity for their name. But then they link that page to their services page and if there's not a lot of anchor text out there or Google doesn't really understand that association between their name and that service and you link to that, I don't feel like the link distribution or the page rank gets pushed.

Speaker 1:

So what are you using to evaluate if the page will push page rank, because I've seen a lot of links too. Depending on when you're linking out, google decide hey, am I going to use the first link or the second link, like it kind of decides now right, even if you're like, do do not follow it, it decides where it's going to push page rank to or not. And so how, how do you evaluate? Is this page actually pushing the right kind of page rank, um, or or is this not helpful? And you know, and if you change the link right, it just it resets the whole thing because all the link distribution gets moved around. And so I'm just curious how you evaluate that to know that that's the right page to link to.

Speaker 1:

And if you have a lot of link equity for a name and you're trying to link it to a service but that association is not out there, I would say you need to go build out that entity, seo, where that association is made, so it will push the page rank. Or like a mixed anchor text or something like that, where you start to blend it, so there's that association out there. I mean, I don't know what, if you're trying to link from one thing that that is not what you're linking to and you're trying to push that uh page rank from one page to the next, it sometimes doesn't go, and so I'm just curious, how do you evaluate that? It just has to have an association. I guess like you.

Speaker 2:

Like you just don't don't think so at a real high level. I'll just give a couple of data points. It has to be organic. So in theory there should be a relationship, complimentary, supplementary relationship, between the content of the pages, right? So let's assume that's fine If it's an external site linking to you. We also have sentiment. Most people aren't even thinking about sentiment, but a negative sentiment doesn't pass PageRank. There only has to be neutral or positive sentiment to pass the PageRank and it has to be organic, right? A bakery linking to my SEO site. They're not an expert on SEOo, that link isn't very valuable, right yeah, but a colleague linking to me might be very valuable.

Speaker 2:

So whether there is page rank transfer has a couple of fundamental rules. Now, historically, when you link within your website, it's always going to pass page rankank. The question is how much? And you know, in the beginning the algorithm had 128 variables in it. Now it has hundreds, hundreds, many hundreds, and so the algorithm, when you look at it, pagerank has been pretty much diluted over the years. Is it in there? Sure, is it a tiebreaker? Absolutely. Is it going to change your life? Probably not. Google has even said that links aren't even one of the top three algorithmic important variables anymore algorithmic important variables anymore, right? So I mean, that's the way it is. They're there. It's been diluted so much, but all the variables have been diluted. So the question is if I have a homepage with 100 page rank points but I have a hundred links on that page, the formula says I'm only pushing 1.85 points to the sub page. That may not be enough to make it rank. If I only had 10 links.

Speaker 2:

now, that might be important and that's why you have to do siloing structures. You have to understand how much juice you're moving and how. I mean this is not a you know, an overnight thing, but you have to know where you're going to put your juice. For instance, if I have a page I don't want to have fighting for ranking, why do I have to give it the juice? Uh, fighting for ranking.

Speaker 1:

Why do?

Speaker 1:

I have to give it the juice, put it on the page that matters, yeah, right.

Speaker 1:

Well, that's the main scenario, right, like you have multiple pages fighting for ranking and trying to decide which page you want to redirect it to, and I think a lot of people get stuck because they have multiple pages rank it for the same keyword and they're fighting for it, so they're, unless you get to the top of the first page, you're not getting anything, so it like it's, it's kind of worthless, you know, if you're hanging around on the second page, you know, so, so, so the link distribution, I think, is really important in in that scenario.

Speaker 1:

Let let me ask you another quick thing, as it relates to that and I know that there's a lot of debate or there has been about this in the past like, if you have a page that doesn't have any inbound links, right, it doesn't have any traffic, it's not like it is indexed, but it's not like a high quality page, um, based upon, like the, the, the strength of the site, how big the site is. The bigger the site is, the harder it is to move the site, you know? And so, like, do you view that those pages, if they're not, you know, superbly valuable to what you're doing. You should trim them so that your overall ratios look better and it's easier to move the site. Or is it better to have these branches and try to harvest the link equity from those, maybe back back to the tree or back to you know, whoever?

Speaker 1:

whatever you're, whatever you're trying to rank, your correct answer is right, like every month they get a little bit stronger, so you know like it's going to be valuable in the future, potentially the answer is no, okay now.

Speaker 2:

Uh. So operationally, when I try to rank for a keyword, to qualify for that keyword I may have to have a fully developed content about the keyword right. I may need to have a cluster or sub silo built out in order to rank for the keyword, because if I don't have the foundation I'm not going to have a house right. So I have to build the required content to qualify for some of my head terms. We've had cases where people have cut off old content and all of a sudden their head term falls because they eliminated their foundation.

Speaker 1:

Because they didn't know what's associated right Like what it's looking at, and I have seen that too, you got to be really careful about what you trim, because you don't know how it's connected to something else, because because I call it link equity, but like how it, how it's associated, so it gets. It gets difficult, especially with old sites when you're trying to untangle it.

Speaker 2:

And it's even. It's more than link equity, it's, it's topic equity. I can't qualify for footwear if I don't talk about all the kind of footwear. It could be that some of them get zero traffic, but it's a prerequisite to the ranking. So, on the one hand, I don't want to cut off content that is required for my head term. The alternate of that is that in the Google quality rater guidelines where EEAT is defined, there's 40 some pages in there to talk about maintenance. Now, while that isn't M-E-E-A-T, it isn't meat, it is still discussed and the concept that I assumed from it.

Speaker 1:

My methodology is that if it is content that is not foundational and it is old, then it update, and that's where people have like, here's the trends, and they go back and they put the date and then they, you know, put another paragraph on what? Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And you look at it and you say, ok, this is a good example on my site, because I did exactly that. I went through and pruned off a couple of thousand pages Now from the 2000s. Now remember, ses was in 99,. Right From the 2000s, I was sending a team of bloggers to conferences and they would live blog sessions and we would publish within an hour the notes from the session. I mean it was amazing, it was great. However, I looked back at my live blogs and I'll guarantee you that the live blog of a session from 2002 is not relevant for SEO today. Okay, and I had all this cool content and I had all of these people and I discussed the actual live session, but it didn't contribute to the foundation of my website and I ended up pruning off over 1,800 pages off my website and I still have thousands, but if it is old and not foundational, you I think that's delineation, right, like and, and you can use to kind of bring the conversation back into the ai.

Speaker 1:

right, you can use the ai to analyze, okay, what is this topical authority or what are the things you need to talk about, and then would this be considered content and you can upload it and you can ask it. But but I get your point Now, if you took some of those sessions, which there's things like no one wants to listen to old, old podcasts about SEO, right, everybody thinks that, like, it's gotta be the newest thing. But there's stuff that was taught so long ago that's foundational or discussed, that's still relevant today because it is foundational and it's tried and true. But but I think you like, like we were talking about, you've got to connect it with now, right, so you got to say this was foundational and it's still believed to be true and this is how it affects today. And then, and then you know you have the link equity and the time that that page is built up, but now it's relevant and so you know it changes where it fits in the algorithm.

Speaker 1:

Right and what I did from foundational and kind of current and now we're not talking news anybody, but that's a whole different category.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So what we did is we either removed the page and redirected it yeah, or we determined it was evergreen and we refreshed it and just kicked it, dragged it up, kicking and screaming into the current age, you know, refreshed all the content. Or we decided that there were multiple pages over the years on that topic and we consolidated them, redirected some and evergreened it on one of the strong URLs. So there's a lot of things you can do, but then, once you're done, you still have to manage the internal link equity, because if I'm deleting pages, it probably linked to something. Yeah, and I have to figure out how I'm going to handle that.

Speaker 2:

I mean, if SEO were easy, everybody would be number one. I mean, that's just the way life is and it isn't easy. You've got to pay your dues. The link equity issue is a big issue and people, I'll tell you right now if I had page A and I decided I didn't want it anymore and I'm going to redirect it to page B, the question is in the content of page A. The question is in the content of page A. What did it link to? Because I lose that when I redirect it.

Speaker 1:

Those sublinks no longer exist. You lose 10% of the link equity on, just like off the top, but then you're losing other things and that's the trouble, right, because what else is that linking to? And then what is that linking to? And like really having an organized structure when you get like a legacy site comes in, you've got to go slow.

Speaker 2:

I've seen, you know I've seen really strange things. I've had people come. One person came to me. He had 714 links in his top nav. He decided to link to just about every product he sold because somebody might want it, of which 96 percent of his links were not clicked on in the last year.

Speaker 2:

But what he did was he diluted his page rank, transfer away from his important pages. Right. So it is a management task to understand the architecture of your website. It may work, people may be able to live with it and find their way around, but the search engine isn't a person. It doesn't click, it doesn't understand that. It reads the DOM, the document, object model. It understands what is resolved and it attempts to figure out how to make that work.

Speaker 2:

Are you trusted? Are you putting text behind your images and hiding it from us? Is it? You know spam rules and all these other rules? And at the end of the day, it's trying to figure out what you're about. And that's the search component. Then you throw AI on top of it and it's are you trusted? Are you an authority? And can I trust your information enough to put it in an ai answer right, as soon as mentally, if I had a list of 10 blue links, I could go to each and I will mentally say that is the opinion of that author. But if, if I take 10 blue links, take all the content, mush it together and give it to you in a paragraph without calling out where it came from, it's gospel. And now the burden is on AI not to burn it, not to harm you.

Speaker 2:

I don't know how AI can effectively do your money or your life sites Right. When I started doing our AI product, I looked at it and I said there's no way we could cut the writer out of this. They're the artists. They're the ones that follow the rules. They're the artists. They're the ones that follow the rules. They know the voice, they know the company, they know the products. There's no way AI out of a box somewhere is going to know your company. So we called it pre-writer. That's it. That's the name of the product. Pre writer. We build briefs but the writer has to finish them. There's no way AI can handle your money or your life.

Speaker 1:

Okay question for you. So I was thinking through this like from a workflow standpoint. Right, and if you're uploading, let's say, just like technical writing, something automotive or whatever, you could upload technical specs. Right, you could upload past blogs if they're happy with their tone, their voice, whatever you could upload like an industry journal or something like that. You could upload a competitor if they like that whatever to train it, to then write the content based upon that. And maybe you're refining it and there's other steps that you do, but that AI can produce. If you know where you're trying to go with the content, it should produce something pretty advanced. And then you can ask it, hey, where are the gaps? And then you got to kind of sift through it a couple times, but I think you could come up with really strong technical content if you have the right inputs. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1:

Oh, absolutely, I fully agree, there are overlays that you can put right, that are trained to keep it in a narrow, defined path. Like I do think you can replace the writer eventually and then now you can even automate that Right. And so, bruce, this is the thing that I'm worried about is, people are going to build these automations and it's just going to like, and it's probably already happening now. You know, you're just pushing out so much content and it's automated off of maybe a list and it's going through these repetitions, and so you've got a lot of people out there that are writing with a writer and creating content. And so you've got a lot of people out there that are writing with a writer and creating content. And then you've got somebody out there producing I don't know five articles a day, like every day. Like you know what I mean, and Google does like that. When you hit that kind of 30, 45 days, I think another algorithm gets hit, at least on social media. I see it and you know it's looking, it's coming back to you, right? The bots are coming back to you, going, hey, give me some more, give me some more, give me some more. It seems like it's going to be a race to the bottom with a lot, of, a lot of these use cases. And so where, where do you think SDO is going Like?

Speaker 1:

I know we're getting into this a little late in the podcast, but I I really think that that's what's on a lot of people's minds, like you know, I need to get, I need to get involved with this, I need to get you know, like, and there's certain people that have a certain opinion here. They're like even with podcasting. Hey, like I can listen to ai talk about it, I can listen to human and I'm going to prefer one of the other. Um, just like ads, right, like ads versus organic, right, there's certain people that have different flavors. Um, I mean, where do you, where do you see, like you've seen all the iterations of change? Right, seo's dead. Long live seo. Where do you see it in 36 months, in five years?

Speaker 2:

oh, seo is never going away. Uh, my saying is seo is done when google stops changing things and all your competition has died. Yeah, that isn't happening. Um, but going back a little bit, um, you see, I view the writer as an artist, right? Um, and I think that you ought to let the artist do it. But left brain, right brain, right, that artist isn't necessarily a good researcher. So pre-writer is the researcher yeah, if you look at a newspaper.

Speaker 2:

They have researchers, they have writers, journalists, copy editors. They have all the checks and balances. If you took off the blinders and looked at your content process, there should be a checks and balances in there, right.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if you're like me but I write something, I put it down. If I pick it up an hour later, I'm asking myself who wrote that. I mean, you can always make it better, and I think that what we want is, you know, do a brief, do an outline, do a list, do a this, do a that and give it to a writer and let him improve it. The problem you're going to run into is and we've had conversations in the industry about this for a long time AI is not creating new content, it's regurgitating existing content. Yeah, right, it may be wordsmithing it, and it may be that you can change all of the LLM and the rules and everything else and you can customize it through programmatic interfaces. You can do that, sure, but if it isn't creative, it's a problem.

Speaker 2:

Now Google has published or stated I think they've stated, not published, but they've stated that what they want is for it to be considered a valid AI, to not be radical. It has to somewhat adhere to accepted norms and offer something unique. Both right. I mean, if I came up and said blueberries cure cancer, that is not an accepted norm, it's going to die right there, right. But if I came up with something, and it was well documented that it did it and I said and you can do this with it that nobody else has thought of yet. That is my value add. That is why I'm first among equals Google's looking for that, and I don't think AI is necessarily even close to being able to do that, whereas humans can do it in a heartbeat. So I really seriously believe that for years, if all you need is regurgitated content, ai is great.

Speaker 2:

If you look for creative things, things you haven't thought about, if you're looking for storytelling, it's going to be a while before AI catches up, and AI sure. Is SEO dead? Well, as long as SEO is the pre-qualifier for the AI, the answer is absolutely not Right. It's going to be around. It's the AI part that we're all wrestling with and saying, oh, I can write a script that will do this. I have a script that generates a content brief. I counted it. It had one hundred and fifty eight specific commands in it 158 different commands. Wow, I mean, we're talking personas. The example I gave earlier, where you had to back it into doing a pass pain activate solution.

Speaker 2:

You have marketing strategy you have how to do, call to actions. You have a gazillion things that are part of the process, including, by the way this is something that's interesting you understand the concept of a japanese sword, where you fold it over a thousand times right and it becomes super sharp, super hard japanese swords. Um, do that to your writing, write it, take it and then ask chat to improve it.

Speaker 1:

And it will.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then you can say I want it to be this and it'll change it. So even what chat creates isn't final.

Speaker 1:

You got to have a human involved and I that's my take no you got to, I think, the operator and understanding how to use it and advanced prompting and all the other tools.

Speaker 1:

But if you don't know what good looks like, it's hard to get to that point, absolutely. So I wanted to try to cover one more topic really quickly. This was something that was talked about a lot at Brighton and I've seen it as well is the drop in traffic, right? So Google? So I want to get your opinion, as a thought leader in the space, on how you're dealing with that, how you're approaching it, how you're looking at it, what you're telling the clients, right, because I mean, ultimately, they're not buying SEO, they're buying, potentially, lead gen. It depends what their goals are right, because I mean, ultimately, they're not buying SEO, they're buying, potentially, lead gen. It depends what their goals are right, but it could be public swaying, public policy, or. But a lot of people want lead generation and that's what they're buying. They're not buying SEO, they're buying I need leads, and then the traffic's dropping because of all the changes that Google's making. Just curious, like your take on that.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Well, there were a lot of people who ran data analysis and the data analysis implies that when AIO is present, the number one organic site had a 70% drop in click-throughs Documented. I mean, we're talking tons and tons and tons and you see the numbers. You don't believe it, so you rent it some more and it's consistent AIO. When Google showed it at the top of the page, it pushed everything down. I hate to say it, but right now the first organic listing on a page is certainly nowhere near the top of the page and I think that Google is going to have to change how it's formatting its content to be multi-column.

Speaker 2:

I think if it's multi-columns done right, but what do you do on a mobile device? And while desktop is still growing, I think you have a problem. I think that you have a problem with the intended use, the non-clicks right 60%, I mean, mean that's a ridiculously high no click ratio on mobile, right, you add it all up.

Speaker 2:

yeah, I'm going to tell you, right now impressions are steady or increasing yep yep, but click through on number one organic is, and it's because there's too much stuff at the top of the page. I mean, I hate to say it, but sometimes you actually have to pack a lunch if you're going to go journey to the number one organic result. It's that far down on the page You're scrolling to get there and those days of the 10 blue links right at the top are long gone. It's the formatting of the Google search result page that's resulting in the traffic drops. And if you throw a great big block of AIO at the top of the page with the right-hand side having some sites you can click on, having some sites you can click on, it changes your orientation to how to build your web page. Here's an example Go to my site and if you go through my blogs, what will happen?

Speaker 2:

You click on a blog, you'll see the jump links go to the FAQ. Take that question, and this is the important part Take the question, highlight it and search and over half the time I am called out in the AIO or I'm the featured snippet because we figured out a methodology for question presentation and answers that it's loved presentation and answers that it's loved by AI. Right, you can see it. Just go through all of the blogs right there on my blog page. Just go to the questions, do the question as a search, not even in quotes, just search it, and what we're finding is that if you have a site that actually definitively answers the question, you'll rank for it. So I go to the question and I take out half the words and search for that. And I'm still there, right, and we're finding that you have to qualify in the search engine, as I've mentioned before, but you also have to change your architecture and your content schema to be more about answering questions. It used to be that the number of questions Google would get would be 4%. Now what I'm hearing is it's 16% and growing.

Speaker 2:

People have learned to ask questions and and usually that's why people go to a search engine anyhow, yeah, yeah. And so what we're trying to do? Mom, when mom was announced or I think it was when Bert was announced by Google, one of the examples was where is the Seattle Space Needle Guess what it's in Seattle, and is there an Italian restaurant near there? And it would be able to relate to questions and give you an Italian restaurant near the Seattle Space Needle. Well, guess what? You do that in one question now. You don't have to do separate queries. You just say I want a restaurant near the Seattle Space Needle and it'll give it to you, right, I can say for this keyword what are the five top Google results and what cities are they in? Compound questions and get that answer.

Speaker 2:

But if I needed to do that as Google queries and what I think is happening is people are learning that power right, and as they learn the power of how to ask the question, more and more questions are being asked. So one of the methodologies that you should follow is to have one question per page, not a whole bunch of FAQs. Get rid of your one paragraph, one hit wonder answers. It's nothing but a definition. You're not going to be beating anybody else, but have a comprehensive answer to the question.

Speaker 1:

And if you could, do that per page, because because that that one page is, and it's going to be, the best answer to that one question, right, right, and and so, ok, yeah, no, I can. I can see that. I've also seen the more you get in the AI overview, the link equity starts to pull it up the rankings, like, the more you can get qualified up there, I'm seeing callbacks get shot up when you get in there. I'm seeing callbacks get shot up when you get in there. So I'm looking at it more like a brand play almost is your impressions are going way up. People are associating your name with the expertise You're showing up in the AI overviews and that's actually the new rankings, right, so it's like, how do I get in those questions?

Speaker 1:

And then, really, what's screwing it up is attribution, right, it's like converting, right, like. And then you're combining it with ads or socials or whatever else you're doing, and you don't. You don't know where the attribution is coming from, because the customer journey they've cycled through so many different things. Like, it looks like you know, they kind of start here in the center and then they go up and then they or they go out and they go in different directions and they come back, but it's not like linear, like the search is not linear, and so you got to figure out again that entity, I guess of, like that topic of spatially, every freaking direction, how, how are you associated with that in relation to everything else? And then I, you know, I guess you're, you're amplifying that with trust and it broadens out the, the sphere of, just like the GM, gmds, right like it, the stronger, the trust, the, the, the stronger, the strength, pushed out in every, every direction with those long tail key phrases and remember.

Speaker 2:

Uh, because it isn't a list of individual sites, the trust is higher with an aio answer. So, um, I I mean it's very powerful, but that is one of the reasons the click-through rate has dropped off. For the organics Now that's only one out of eight queries. I have plenty of other opportunities and it's only for informational queries, jim.

Speaker 1:

O' Informational yeah.

Speaker 2:

Ed Helmske, PhD Right. So if I have something that is transactional, I'm still I'm totally okay. However, if I'm a transactional site, I ought to be developing informational pages, Jim.

Speaker 1:

O' yeah.

Speaker 2:

Ed Helmske, phd, and a lot of people are still a little behind on understanding that requirement.

Speaker 1:

Do you see a bifurcation? Last question, I appreciate your time A bifurcation, because they used to I don't know what they called it, I don't want to say what the trainings I went through, but low quality links. But local links right. So they're giving the local players a chance, right, if they don't have the usability, if they don't have that, but they're specific to an area, like if it's a nonprofit or something like that. But I'm seeing in this new world like you've got to ante up and you've got to meet this requirement and so these big companies are starting to rank locally right, right when other local players like if you're a bakery if you're a national bakery versus like a local bakery.

Speaker 1:

The national bakeries are starting to really take up a lot of the serves and the local bakeries are kind of getting pushed out and that's going to translate to business. I guess it's just kind of the course of the evolution of search. But, like, what are some, I guess, tips to leave behind to maybe small business owners if you're not working with the big corporations or you're not a big corporation? Like how are, how are the small players going to compete with all the different things that you need to do? Cause SEO is just yeah, it to do it right to, to have all the steps to have, like, even if we're just talking about content, you know the smaller players have to cut corners because they don't have the budget. But how, like? How are they going to be able to compete as they move forward? I mean, what's, what's the guiding star for them? To kind of leave, leave everybody with some hope.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so um I understand, Google is in the business of making money.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, right.

Speaker 2:

They don't care about us, they care about making money. They're a public company, it's their job and I'm okay with that. Local has a tendency, because it is focused, geographically focused, it has the ability for me to want to pay a little bit more than if I was trying to compete in the national area as a local business. So Google supports local local. I wouldn't think that it would spend so much energy giving national accounts local presence. The thing that is the number one local factor. Number one local factor is Google Business Profile. The second one is local reviews, and let's just take those two. It's going to be very difficult. A national program cannot get a localized business profile. You have to physically have presence there and most of them can't and they don't necessarily get local reviews. They don't necessarily get local reviews. So there is an ability to compete. The problem you face is that the SEO on a local level is not that much cheaper than the SEO on a national level.

Speaker 1:

These big sites, as every month goes by and the page rank increases.

Speaker 1:

What I see is like there's a big pop whenever that happens in that cycle and these Web 2.0s, or you know, multi-location page sites, pop up in the search rankings temporarily every time that I guess that page rank gets released and I mean it just dominates the SERPs, like if you're in an industry that has a couple of those players in there, you know, like NerdWallet, for example, if you're in finance, I mean, you know their stuff, just like crushes it Right and and they're going into every conceivable niche related to finance that you can think of and they're doing this national SEO at a very high level that transitions out to all these different searches and locally and they're starting to own the SERPs for a lot of different terms that you wouldn't think that they would normally own. And you know, I I think it it's getting really competitive and and then that's becomes okay. If you want to compete like it's going to take, it's going to take more firepower. We're going to have to work on your site a lot more to do that.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely.

Speaker 1:

Just kind of what you have to do if that's what you want, and then you got the traffic dropping too. So it's a confluence of of of challenges. Uh, for, for somebody that's looking at a marketing budget and saying I don't really understand what's going on, but I want to put you know, I want to invest my marketing dollars and I want to output, um and and that number keeps going up.

Speaker 2:

Right, so the way we've done it, we have this thing called localware, okay, and it's got three phases. You see, the biggest problem you face is if you're given a quote of X number of dollars a month, it's because your project is that big, right, or that big. The thing is, on day one you're not going to do all of it, yeah. So what we did is we said here's phase one, it's a fraction of the real SEO project, but that's all we're going to do for phase one, and then we're going to add on for phase two. So your bill will go up for phase two, but we're doing more, right?

Speaker 2:

But on day one I don't have to charge you for this big national program, because we're not going to be ready for some of it until you know three months in. So you have to end up, instead of saying this is my program, this is what it costs, you have to be ready to say this is my program, this is what it costs. You have to be ready to say this is my program, this is what it will eventually cost. But we're going to start and do it block by block by block, and we're only going to charge you as we expand. And now, if you get the return on your investment. Now, if you get the return on your investment, you don't mind investing, right, if I put in a dollar and get out 10, I'm going to go to the bank and get a stack of dollars. I mean, it's that simple. And so you really need to have a building block system for local and you need a comprehensive system for national, because most of the time when we get a national account, it's already developed.

Speaker 2:

Yeah they've been doing SEO for two years and we're their fourth SEO company. Right, they need somebody that can do a deep dive. Finally they're ready for that. But until then, we just have to. But until then, we just have to.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate and recognize that a lot of local sites don't have budgets. Yeah, all right. So we'll start you small, we'll fix the basics, we'll bootstrap to phase two and if your site you know one of my sayings it's not the job of SEO to make a pig fly If your site is terrible, seo didn't fix it. So I can only do what I can do with what I'm given. But under normal circumstances I'm able to do quite a bit. But if I have to do it to a budget and you're a small guy with a limited budget, I have to do it in blocks. I can't sell you the whole project. You're not going to be able to keep up with me, so I have to sell you the piece that, okay, we're going to do this and see what happens. Then we're going to do this and see what happens. Then we're going to do this and see what happens. Then we're going to do this and see what happens, and we'll walk you through a growth program.

Speaker 1:

Do you have a tool that, like a calculator, that kind of analyzes?

Speaker 1:

Because I've been playing around with a couple of different things in Excel but you got to pick those variables and the thing for me is, once I get into a site and we start working on a site, I don't really know how long it's going to take until I kind of go through the long-term database update about two and a half months. So I'm like I can give you a number of what I think it's going to be, but until I start driving your site, see how it responds like I call it, like blooming the flower, to take whatever they have to just see. Let's optimize it and see what happens, set a new baseline. Now I can tell you what I think it's going to take to get to where you want to go. But now they're three months in and you know there's a lot of trust building and you know they haven't seen any ROI. Like you know there's a lot of trust building and you know they haven't seen any ROI. Like you know it's horseshoes and hand grenades with SEO. And so you got to, you got to really do a lot of education so they understand what they're getting into, because you know a lot of them. I'm like I call it like walking through the desert. I'm like, ok, we have to get to six months Like and I will show you the progress and you will see it. But to get to six months like and, and I will show you the progress and you will see it, but on the back end of the six months you're gonna be really happy. But until then, you know, like you gotta trust me, we gotta, you know, I gotta show you the success, I gotta show you the steps, just kind of like sales calls and you know proposals, like you're gonna get there.

Speaker 1:

But but you gotta know that this is something you really want to do, because when someone has a small budget and it's their money, right, like when you talk to the corporations, it's, you know it's budget, but you know the small businesses they're, they're, they're going I need to, you know, rob, peter, to pay Paul kind of thing and and sometimes they don't have the budget for it and or or or. The market can't bear actually the budget that's actually needed. So I'm starting to have a lot of the conversations if, if they're competing in a high DA keyword, right, and there's some really strong sites that are out there. I'm like you know this is this is going to take. This is not going to be a three month thing, right, like I'm going to need the long-term database to update at least three or four times. You know, and that's just what it's going to be. You know, and so Well, the problem you face you know you're absolutely right.

Speaker 2:

This is the problem every agency has. But even then, we in my agency will tell you we run in four-week sprints Because if Google is going to change the rules, if your competition is not static right Yep, we're in a dynamic environment. I cannot tell you, even four weeks from now, what Google just did to the entire industry. I cannot tell you that. So what we do is we say our visibility is four weeks, chances are it's reasonably stable. Here's the four week project and at the end of four weeks we define the next four weeks.

Speaker 2:

There's no way I can give you a six month project plan. I can tell you these are the things that are broken and I have to work on them, but I cannot tell you that in seven weeks, google is going to roll over the algorithm and you're going to get crushed. I cannot tell you that in 11 weeks, you're going to get hit with malware. Somebody will break into your servers. I am not going to tell you that Google just invented something else and it's a rule, not a guidance. I can't tell you any of that, right. All I can do is my best job to move you along on a good project Right now, probably 95% of all of our clients have seen a significant traffic increase since they started with us, but I still can't give them a six-month plan. Yeah, yeah, where am I going to get?

Speaker 1:

ROI. When am I going to see the ROI on this? And then, what the funniest thing is, like we have clients that, oh, boom, boom, boom, boom, bunch of leads, Right, and then they're like, man, it's been quiet this week and I'm like, yeah, I just went over there and turned it off the lead. I said that just what, like you're still in first position or top three or whatever it is. I was like, so, you know, it's just kind of like the demand in the marketplace ebbs and flows and so, but I think, for everybody listening, if you enjoyed this conversation, Bruce Clay does Ask Me Anythings, which I've been on a few of those where he answers questions like these and and goes into detail.

Speaker 1:

And certainly you know, about three years ago I was on a lot of them because there was a lot of stuff going on and and I had a lot of questions and he did a great job answering them, like he did today. Bruce, you want them to go to your website, bruceclaycom. How do you want them to get in touch? People to get in touch with you. Just really enjoyed having you here.

Speaker 2:

Yes, Thank you. Most people would just go to bruceclaycom. But if you just wanted training, I have seotrainingcom. If you just want tools, I have SEO toolscom. I have some nice domain names.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, pre-writer I have pre-writerai and in fact, you can go to pre-writerai and sign up. We'll give you 20 free tokens to try it. So you know we've got some very powerful things, but Bruce Clay would probably be the best way. You also probably want to follow me. There's Bruce Clay and Bruce Clay Inc on LinkedIn and you might want to follow me as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

We have our blog. I mean you ought to subscribe to the blog, yeah.

Speaker 1:

No, I'm subscribed everybody, I'm subscribed to his blogs. I would just tell you there's so much going on in SEO. You need to stay abreast of what's going on. I think the tools are starting to get a lot more powerful, giving you a lot more insights. I would encourage you to go check out SEO tools and yeah, bruce, thank you so much for coming on, really enjoyed it. Until the next time, everybody, if you're looking to grow your business with the largest, most powerful tool on the planet, which is the Internet and now, coupled with what AIO is doing, ai is changing the game yet again Reach out to EWR for more revenue in your business. Thanks again, until the next time. Bye-bye for now.

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Matt Bertram

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